Welcome to the Energetic Radio podcast. This episode is brought to you

by the school of play dot co, hosted by Dale Sibonham and

Paul Campbell. Each week, we'll bring to you tips, strategies, and ideas

on how you can bring more joy and happiness into your life and those you

share with. Alright, everyone. Welcome back to the podcast episode

number 359 with the one I'm Matt Borg. How are you, Borgie?

Wow. Thanks, boys. Fantastic. It's obviously

middle of the holidays now, so all guns are blazing, relax,

and, relaxing is is on the cards. So I'm looking

forward to, yeah, gearing up for another big term ahead.

Now I love that, mate. We're, obviously, playing the picture a little bit about, who

you are. We've crossed past a few times of principal's conferences, and then we

had the pleasure recently of coming to, obviously, your school where your principal

added primary school. And, we obviously go to a lot of

schools, and we're a big believer in culture and feeling and, you

know, happy people make good culture. Anyway, the moment we got out of our car

that day to do our leadership session, teachers are saying hello, students are saying

hello. Everyone's happy. It's something that we haven't witnessed,

not only at schools, but just in life in general.

Is that something that you're really proud of? Because we believe you've got an

outstanding culture, mate, and it obviously starts at the top. I know you don't take

credit for this, but let's talk about that. You have a bloody happy

school. Like, how intentional has that been to

create? We do have a very happy school, and I'm glad that

you could pick up on that five. Extremely intentional would

be the would be the right answer. You know? And, again, I

just need to acknowledge, like, we we stand on the shoulders of giants of those

who paved the path before us here at k at KVPS, at Killer Views Primary

School. Well, before, it was called Killer Downs Primary School.

And the culture of the community and,

the entire school allowed us to actually set the scene

for something that is pretty special that we've experienced probably for the

last six or seven years now where it's we're intentional

about, you know, empowering kids and really just going

to a place where we spend time during the day

to, you know, make the world just a little bit better place, and that comes

from the parents, from the the teachers, and, of course, from our students.

So that sort of empowerment, leadership ideal

is something we've ingrained in the community in our in our school

now, and you can feel it. It's a vibe. Yeah. You walk in. You know

it. You can feel it. There's no

apprehension for kids to be themselves. There's no apprehension for staff to

be themselves, and we really encourage them to bring their full self and their full

amount range of emotions to school each and every day so we can learn to

be just a bit better at humaning, every day we spend together.

Humaning. I love that. Humaning. And that's the key to it, isn't it? Humaning is

the I've never used the term humaning in my forty three years of existence, so

I love that. Well, like I said, we just invent words. We invent words. It's

pretty good. I love it, but it is. It's it's such a

what we felt was that really human centered approach, and that's

that seemed to be the cornerstone of every decision you made

or you make is that human centered approach. And I think that's what When

we think about it, that's all that matters. Yeah. What else matters? What else

matters than the humans that are involved in a school, in in a

school play like, we are a place of humans for humans and

really for regenerative, you know, generating a future

ideal of the world being just a bit better than it is every day.

So, of course, we put humans at the center and human

emotion, human feelings, the way humans be,

in the daytime hours is something that we're really focused on. Of course,

we care so much about kids being numerator, being able to,

you know, regulate their emotions, being able to work as a team,

being able to do all the emotional intelligence stuff,

and, you know, create an idea of work

ethic, but that's all surrounded with the ideal

that it's just really about coming to school and being a good

human and even trying to be a better one each and every day. Yep. And

you say that as though it's common practice or

it's common and it it don't worry. Common knowledge? Yes. But is it common practice?

Definitely not. I've worked in, you know, definitely one or two schools that come to

mind that weren't human centered. I've worked in organisations that may not have been. So

this, this is applicable across the board to not just schools, but any

organisation, you know, if you're a leader of any organisation whatsoever in a

sporting team, whatever it might be, is that human centred

approach needs to be paramount. And then the the things you mentioned

before, the literacy, the numeracy, the the development, that will flow

through, right, that'll come through as a byproduct of the human centered

approach. But and I just Borgy, please know that you said that as everyone

that's why everyone operates, And it's not. And that's why we wanted to get you

on because we wanted you get you to spread the word and and just plant

those seeds in other people's brains that, oy, be human centered

first. You like, I think most organizations, not

most, but a lot, dollar driven. You know what I mean? They're

dollar driven. They're numbers driven. They're data driven, maybe. I don't know. Yep.

But, yeah, that huge I know you boys absolutely love data.

But as soon as I hear that d word, I sort of drown out and

think, oh, this is this is sort of just numbers

that disassociate the human being from their actual

actions and frame of mind and, the complexity that

humanness is. And I I've used data all the time, obviously, to drive

different incentives, but I really don't, like,

like it. Especially, we we we we categorize data into two

different sections, warm data and cold data. A lot of the cold

data is that just generic data that comes out, from time to time

from multiple choice surveys or multiple choice testing,

that we're exposing our kids to because we have to.

What we look at is the warm data or destination data of how many

kids are actually playing with each other at the recess and lunchtime, how they can

resolve issues when they do have problems themselves.

You know, the destination data of our kids, you know, have been teaching long enough

now to have parents of kids that I've

taught, or well, they're they're the parents of the new kids that

are enrolling in the school and the generation after generation of,

families wanting to come to Killer View's Primary School because

they were given something a little bit more special than what they felt was,

offered elsewhere. But what really goes down when you talked about

intent, we we really hammered down the

humanness, since 2020, and we all know what happened

then. Yep. And being able to

afford the time, really, during 2020 when you weren't doing much else. I wasn't doing

much fishing, and I wasn't doing much, of anything.

And I really together with Dan and the rest of our

team who are all leaders, we really

dive deeply into the purpose of school and really look at the

history around what the purpose of schools were in the past and why they

were, brought to be and why we're still using

a sort of 50 year old model right now.

And, again, that capitalist sort of mindset of dollars and

bums on seats is is is ever present, but how can

we be better in a space where,

you know, that capitalist ideal still exists in schools?

And part of that was deep diving into, you know,

human history, deep diving into what what happened after the,

industrial revolution and how the schools came about. And then we came to

a point where it was, well, we can teach all those things that we

need to teach in the curriculum, which is overcrowded as we all know and loaded

up full of things you're probably never gonna use, but we can wrap it

actually in this this state of humanness, and,

connection with the emotional state of, what being a

human is all about and then trying to capitalize

on the the purpose and well-being that that brings to people

to intrinsically motivate them to be there. So that's a long way around to talk

about intrinsic motivation being something that

we've, deep dived on. And the more I've read,

and talked to experts around motivation, and

particularly intrinsic motivation, there there's nothing more powerful than

people doing something because they actually want to. So how do we

you know, we ask the question of ourselves as educators, well, how can we have

these children wanting to read? How do we have these children

actually wanting to be numeric? And it's all about context

and purpose and really embedding in them

that, you know, learning doesn't just occur in a four

walls of a classroom. It occurs outside twenty minutes

every day when we start our day with, you know, really purpose

driven play and exercise to be able to spark

those neurons and have them, have a social experience as soon as they

get to school and then be able to do that through games and play

and physical activity. So we we sort of tick all the

human boxes before we actually sit down and try and do some really

intensive, purpose driven literacy work or

numeracy work in the classroom. Yep. And I love that. And the few things I

wanna pick apart there is the warm data, and I've never heard that term before.

I've never heard that term before. Yeah. It's not mine, and there's there's this great

there's this great individual called Nora Batesman Yep. Who does so

much work in, the regenerative learning spaces.

And, yeah, her her her ideal of warm and, cold

data is quite similar, but it's more of an environmental background,

whereas we've embedded that within a school, a

situation and school culture. Yep. And I'm intrigued. Like,

massively intrigued from one leader to another. How do you go about collating

warm data? Obviously, you know, you said before, warm data. How

many how many kids are playing with each other in the schoolyard? Is that just

a is that just a visual collection of data and it's a

feel, or you're actually tangibly collecting somehow warm

data or just a feel? That that is an awesome question. That and I

wish I knew the complete answer to it because I'd be, probably happier and

richer than I am right now. But the reality is, the the reason why we

it isn't very readily measured is because it's so hard to do so. Yeah. That

that's the the simplest thing. So how do you measure it? You measure it by

your parent opinion, not just the survey they do, but the feedback that you

get. You know, we don't have behavioral issues in our school.

Yep. And when we do, it's such a random and, unique

event that, you know, everyone circles in on it, and we make sure

we do it in a restorative way to to remedy remedy the

issues. So because we're starting in a culture of positivity,

of of shared value and purpose, the kids actually

respond directly to that. And because when when an

issue does come up and we do have them, we all like, that's being human.

There's gonna be, arguments or complications or kids just learning how

to behave and do the right thing in our environment,

they're so rare and unique that we put and as I said to our parents,

they will you know, Carl, you're really busy. I didn't wanna bother you with this.

I said, well, not really because behaviorally, this is all I'm working on

right now. This is the one thing. And maybe we can nip it in the

bud pretty quick, in a restorative way to ensure that it's

a learning experience for all involved. Yeah. I love it. And for

those those people that, that wouldn't know much

about kilo views is one of the things that is elite about this

school is the first twenty minutes you touched upon it before the first twenty minutes

of every single day is the human centered approach.

First, it's getting people to connect with other people. It's getting them outside. They're all

out of the classroom They have some play, they have some physical movement, and

that gets the human set up for the day ahead before you even embark on

any literacy, numeracy, learning, and such a simple notion, but you've

been doing that for how many years? At least twenty seven. I

was trying to count. I told you twenty five because that's a guarantee because I've

been there for that long Yeah. Off and on off and on, and the program

or the initiative has just continued. But, yeah, at least twenty seven

years before I got to the school, it was already in place. And that

twenty minutes is key for for our for our

kids, and it's key for our success. Like, we do we do well, you know,

in the cold data of the day. Yeah. You know, your our NetPoint

data is is okay. It's good. Our, you know,

attitudes to school survey where where kids are surveyed to see how

they are finding the school is great. It's high. Our our parent

response is really high. So we get all the we tick all the boxes for

the for the cold data, but it's this sort of warm data

stuff that, you know, just being a beacon in a community

that is just that little bit different where we give kids

the freedom, to express in full cell their their their full

selves and be able to help them navigate what it means to

to get along in an environment where, you know, everyone

is in entitled to feel and be empowered with

whatever strength they bring to the table. Yeah. I absolutely love that. Do

you do you intentionally educate

the kids about why you're doing the twenty minutes of play and physical

activity at the start of every day, or you're just letting the kids let them

have fun? I'm mindful. I mean, I'm I'm intrigued with that.

Yeah. No. No. We don't we don't actually tell them the

science. We don't we've never really discussed other than the physical,

expectations. So I'm pretty sure when I, think about the way

the fitness came from, there used to be a mandate and probably still is about

how many how many hours of PE, or physical

activity kids should be doing Yep. In, you know, the little, early two

thousands that that sort of mandate came out. And to fulfill that

criteria, I know the school through School Sports Victoria back in

the early two thousands actually jumped on board and and

reran the the fitness, what we we used to call fitness, the

fitness program. So it's it's just been

ingrained in our culture for so long that no one ever questions it.

But we often reflect on how when we

go out to school visits and look at other schools and look at kids a

bit dysregulated when they come in in the morning, you can't be

dysregulated when you're with your friends and you're playing a a functional

game. You're seeing your teacher getting involved in that game as well.

You're having success really early with physical or

play or, you know, interacting with your friends, and

then you get to to come back into the classroom and then

sit down. Because a lot of the kids rock up these days. You know? They're

half asleep when they walk through our gates. Yep. But we spark them up really

quickly in that twenty minutes, and are able to get the

very best. And, obviously, it it shows in the,

in in the way that the school functions across the board

in, you know, things like my school and all those other platforms, you can see

that we're we're pretty high performing. Yeah. For sure. And I I love that

it's every day. So many schools, organizations will

have, like, a targeted thing where it's one or two days a

week. Yeah. Whatever it might be, but it's every single day.

So you're right. You you know the right ways to get them set up for

success and just feeling connected for throughout the rest of the day. And it's not

just two days a week. It's every day. And so many people,

especially leaders, would be really apprehensive and nervous to give up, you know,

twenty minutes a day, five days a week, but you get it back in

spades throughout the rest of the day, throughout the rest of the week. So it's

a no brainer. Why aren't so, boy, you want other schools doing it? Like, we

all know the science behind moving your body, feeling connected, getting those

endorphins going in the morning, particularly now. Like, we get a lot of schools

in recess lunchtime. Kids are they're not allowed to have phones, particularly in high schools.

But what are they doing? They're all on their computers. They're all on YouTube. Like

phone. That's just a bigger phone. That that it is. It's exactly the same, but

they're not moving the body. They're not they're talking through a screen. It actually makes

we've seen about a school a couple weeks ago. It made me feel really sad

that they're not even talking. They're sitting next to each other, playing a game or

on YouTube, but talking through a device to each other. Like, that

like, why Is it hard? Is it ease? Like, why are those schools we

know moving your body and connecting is the ultimate currency for

happy living. Why aren't more schools doing it? I think more schools

aren't doing it because they don't think it's the right work right now,

and we've always been innovative in I have as a as a

human in general, not just as a school leader or a principal.

I'm always innovating and thinking of just the leveling

up the way we do things, changing things up. And I think

that some schools, feel like they're locked. They're locked in

a structure that can't be changed, whereas the autonomy that we're

actually afforded by the Department of Education is that we can

create innovative ideas such as, you know, more movement.

And I also think, Dal, when you when when we're really talking about honest,

educational policy, the literacy block in the morning became very

militant. So it was like the first thing you do is read and sit down

with the kids. Now I don't know about your kids, but my kids went soon

as they with the whirlwind of me getting to them to school

while I'm trying to myself get to school or work,

then exposing them to that whirlwind. The last thing I think I

wanna do when I get straight into work is to sit down and start

reading a book for my own, learning of the skill of reading a

book. I wanna be able to be social. I wanna be able to

communicate with everyone around, get a get a a a basic sense

of how everyone's feeling and what everyone's doing and what the tone of the

day is going to look like, and our kids exactly the same. So to do

that outdoors, if we can, to do that in a play based environment

where it's low risk, low risk communication, low risk

connections, not there's there's no one gonna be judged if you

miss a shot in basketball because you're gonna miss a hundred before you get 50

in. So it's, it it's just a great space, and I just

think people do not take on the permission they actually

have to trial and do things just a little bit different.

And, look, like I said, we've got twenty seven years of evidence, and you can

cycle through as much cold data as you want. But Keyloview still stays

on top of a lot of other like in similar schools. In considering that we

still use this twenty minutes a day, every day to do this

physical activity. So net benefit is big.

Yep. Mhmm. And we saw it. We we saw it firsthand. Ah, we felt And

it was amazing walking around. Just, I know personally as

someone that struggles to sit still, that would have been the ultimate for me. Yeah.

Like, I would have probably been a lot better at school. Like, if I had

had that opportunity or I know when I got there in the morning that we're

going to be able to do that, instead of just sitting down, same thing,

in lines, teacher talks, you write, you listen. It doesn't work

for everyone. And I just reckon it's early. It reduces it.

I imagine it reduces a lot of anxiety. There are so many young people walking

through the school gates now with with anxiety, their nervousness about coming

to school, but there's shit going on at home as well. You know, it might

be. But they come in, they know the first twenty minutes is not

it's not individuals, not aimed at them. They can just simply be part of a

community and relax into the school day a little bit. And that one Exactly.

And that's and then that's an opportunity to self regulate into

a new environment that they're in. Like, it's obviously not new to them

because they've they've starting prep, and, hopefully, they come all the way through to grade

six with us. But it's a new it's a new and different environment instead of

behaviors and values that they need to come into for that day,

from compared to their home. So that transition is actually

really buffeted by this low stakes, high energy,

self regulation where, you know, you've got a kid that wants to make

every shot in the basketball hoop, say, if they're doing, basketball, but you got

another kid that just might just take it easy at the background. Just get the

lay of the land for the day, see how they're feeling. They might have had

a dysregulated night, might not have got as much sleep as they need to, might

have missed breakfast, but they know that they're coming into this

environment of continuity that either doing their twenty minutes every day, then we'll

get into the classroom, where we do some bit more formal

learning. Yep. Yeah. I love it. And I love the little comment you made

about how the tape they know the teachers are gonna be involved with them. They

know the teachers. So your teachers aren't in hiding the classrooms. They're actually out

playing games, running the activities, drinking for them too. That's brilliant for them as well.

That's that's the thing. A lot of adults, we know that they need to do

it, but we don't do it ourselves. So by actually forcing them to do that

and be a kid and get out there, it'd be helping them feel, well, why

they're happy. They don't need to know why they are happy, but it's because things

like that are set in place that they get something they need as an individual

as well. Yep. And And it's also I think it's the best thing for building

rapport with your kids. Right? The best thing you can do as a teacher to

build rapport with your students is to get out amongst them and and be amongst

them and almost come down their level a little bit, I guess. Yeah.

And we've seen that with you. You're up to around the place you were joking

with every student in the war past. You know what I mean? You had a

little bit of a you're the you're the leader of a school, but you knew

each and every kid. You had a little side hustle, little joke with each kid,

a little knew about them. You had some fun along the way. You didn't take

life too seriously as the print. And I think, yeah, obviously,

attitude reflects leadership, and I imagine you've given your

staff I wanna say the Permission. No. I don't wanna say

permission because Borga doesn't like the word permission. I remember that from a previous conversation.

No. I don't I don't I don't mind permission in that sense because,

yeah, they did need permission at some point to be

themselves and to, make learning

visible to them, but not in a hatty way. Make learning visible to

show and even in the games and the playing with the kids, kids can

see that even adults mess up. Even adults need to

get better at doing certain things, whether it be a physical,

sport or a or a or a low stakes dice game.

Showing kids how to not

win, how to get better at something, that not

everyone is great at things. I think that's all the modeling and making that

learning, visible for, the kids to see, yeah,

you might be an adult, a full fledged teacher, but you still got so much

to learn, and you've got so much to, show

the kids that learning is a lifelong ambition. It's

not, you know, it's not something that's done within the school walls. Yeah.

I'm I'm intrigued. This is a question without notice. They're all questions without notice.

This is very true. This is very true. We didn't give any we didn't give

any any preplanning, did we? So this is this is question 22. I just

I I just I love James. Thanks for giving me the example. I'm fresh without

notice. What what's

what's next for you in terms of your leadership? What do you

wanna work on next? What do you wanna learn about next? What's what's gonna push

you out of your comfort zone next? Four questions without notice in one, but

I'm intrigued with that. That just popped in my head. What's what's next for you

in terms of your leadership? My my own leadership

is Yeah. About how I can best best distribute the leadership across

the school for as long as possible, and it's not, Matt

Borg, leadership style. Empowerment leadership model, which we've

built, is ingrained and believed in by every

individual that walks through that door, and that, you know,

this is a legacy that we're leaving within this school environment that

can carry on in a regenerative way for years and years

to come. And, that's really just about ingraining

the empowerment culture where we've got you know, really,

what we've done is instead of relying on just the

academics who might study something for six, seven years at a time, I believe that

every educator in the classroom is an academic that can do their own

research in a way that is just, if not more powerful, than

any other researcher across the globe because their their

research and my research into the way kids learn, adults learn,

and the way school should be. It it comes from, what,

twenty five years of on the job

experience in the classroom generation after generation.

And just because we haven't written a thesis about it yet, it, doesn't

mean that it's not as powerful learning to around

improvement and what students should be able to be exposed to every day. So in

doing that, we actually built, a four tiered structure,

that we call empowerment leadership. It's all about self efficacy. No

brainer. You're you're no good to anyone unless you're coming

in with a self efficacious approach, looking after yourself, ensuring that, you

know, you're your best self for those people you're about to serve. The

pillar two is collective efficacy, making sure that we feel

stronger and better together and ensuring that, you know, we come to

school with a positive mindset as educators and as learners to be able

to say, okay. Today, you know, we might not achieve

all the goals we need to do, but we're gonna get further together. And,

you know, we're gonna take all, people's ideas on board and

and regulate through those. And then we we talk about

the power of doing the right work. So that's really what the,

the secret sauce is in ensuring that that work is done.

And the the fourth one is really celebrating the work that we have done and

the successes we have done and then reflecting on, you

know, the the learning journey of every stew any student

isn't at the end of a, conveyor belt or a factory

floor. This is an ongoing thing. So my

big, you know, data moment is when I'm I'm

crossing paths with someone at the local shopping center who's got a family of their

own. They've been working and sustaining themselves pretty easily. You know,

they've really well adapted into society, and they just look like they're

having, you know, a great life. That's that's the data I I I

love, and that's the data that a lot of us primary school teachers in particular

don't get to see because, you know, we're there for seven years, and then the

next seven is sort of, you know, a bit rocky, obviously.

And, it's only if you if you remain in that community,

you can see the successes in which that you've you've had.

Yep. I love that. Now let's talk about trust because,

I think people if you're working somewhere, trust is

probably you know, you obviously wanna enjoy the people you work with, but you

wanna also know that the people above you or who you're working with trust you

to back yourself in and do what you wanna do. How do you give

your staff trust? But more importantly, how do you allow them to

fail and try new things and and believe that that's okay? Because a

lot of people are scared of failing because sometimes it's not

it's not okay. It's not looked, like, looked upon that way. So how do you

instill trust and allow your staff to because I feel that's one of the bigger

areas why people are so happy because they do feel valued, and they know no

matter what they do, it's gonna be okay. How did you make it so that

is just a mentality at KillViews and that everybody feels

that way? I think it's for us, trust is built

through psychological safety. So and then over

over, you know, over a period of time.

So trust is not something that you can just, of course, we're all

professionals and we trust each other in a certain degree, but over time

and providing a psychologically safe environment for every learner in the school, and I'm

including teachers in that as well and parents, that,

you you'd be able to maintain the idea of, okay,

I feel safe in this environment, so I'm willing to take risks in my,

learning, and I'm willing to take risks in my teaching to that

the benefit is the kids or the students or the learners in

general. So it's about creating the safe place and space,

environment, and the culture of yeah. We we're not gonna get

everything right all the time. The complexity of what we do every single day

when we walk into a classroom or walk into a school is

just immense. So amongst all that complexity,

if someone can come up with, you know, a new or innovative way of

teaching anything, we're always open and welcome to it. And we

have that psychological safe space where, you know, if

if we if we fail individually, you have people

next to you lift up, but we tend to fail more as a as a

group or as a community of learners. So then we can actually

learn from that and create that into a a cycle of of improvement

rather than focus on what went wrong. We we really like to

focus on what went right and how we can work on that and

move forward. And there's a lot of great examples of, you know,

people led innovation in our school where it hasn't come from the top down,

and that's where you get from a, an educational or

leadership framework where it's very, linear where,

you know, there's no hierarchy within the school. We've completely

stripped what leadership means in a, a a

historical sense, and we've looked at leadership in the classroom

as something that's everyone's job, whether you be the,

you know, the canteen staff member, the office staff member, the ES staff

member, the teacher, even the principal. Everyone is displaying

leadership skills in some way and some, so everyone's

involved in leadership building. The the way that we remunerate

is a bit different where it's to do with accountability. So, of course, I'm the

most accountable person in school, and it sort

of tears down from there. That's more hierarchical than our actual leadership structure. So

no leading teachers. No oh, we have one leading teacher, but they're out of the

classroom. We've got very minimal coaching. Our coaching is done in

more, an environment of their own teaching teams.

So we have the experts on the ground rather than the experts over the

top demonstrating what should be done. We have

experts exploring what could be done. And that is

oh, it's so simple. Love it. Every organization,

every everyone I've worked at, every school I know is that there is that hierarchy.

You know where you stand. And it's always us against them, unfortunately,

no matter how well you tend to do. But the fact that you've removed that

hierarchical sort of chain and you've spread the love amongst everybody, that's

been removed because it doesn't work. If you look at some of the research and

the history, of humankind about how, you know,

tailorism where, you know, there's two types of ways of getting people to do

what you want them to do, sticks and carrots. Yeah? So the sticks are

the, you know, communist way, the carrots are the capitalist way.

That never worked, and it never did work. It didn't it didn't even work for

the people in the factory floor. However, we are continually,

as a human species, told that the only way

you do incentivize sensize someone, I can't say the word,

to, be able to do

something good for humanity is by

either carrots and sticks. Like, carrots be money, sticks be, you know, some sort

of punitive action. So that's where intrinsic motivation

comes in, that it's a it's a well of just

endless gold. If you can tap into that where every

individual that walks into your school every every day is just doing the very best

job they possibly can for the reason of doing the very

best job they possibly can because they believe in it, and they feel like it's

a safe place to to, again, empower people to be

better than they were yesterday. Yeah. I love that. And it sounds simple. Yeah. Does

everyone buy in, though, Bo, you like every staff member that come on

board that wouldn't be for everyone, I'm guessing? No. No.

Not not everyone buys in, and that's okay. And some

people say they buy in and they don't. Some people look like they're

bought in and they're not. And and that's all that's all the complexity of

being a human being. And, of course, you should question,

you should prod and poke and, ask.

You know, I love like, we don't have leadership meetings at our school in a

formal sense where, you know, all the leading teachers and

assistant principals, it'd be a pretty small meeting because we don't have many of them

Yes. Would be in in a in a room, and we have a meeting about

the staff meeting that's gonna occur later that week. So it's meeting about meeting then

a meeting about another meeting. We're not doing that. That's just a waste of time.

So what we actually do is we meet our our leadership meeting is the entire

staff. Like, we come together all in day. Bang. This is a leadership

meeting. This is what we're doing. This is direction. Of course, we look at some

cold data that we need to improve to ensure that we're fulfilling the

departmental, obligations that we have as a school. But we're

also, again, connecting, ensuring that we have,

the the curriculum that we believe is going to, you know,

suit our our students, you know, the bespoke way and then be able to

implement that curriculum in a in a in a way that doesn't put

anyone else at risk of things like burnout

and fatigue. So it's really hard to argue with a

structure they've seen work, particularly over the last four years within the

school. So we've probably had two staff members that have thought,

this is not for me. But in a really,

positive way, they've moved on to other settings that were more for

them, and they've leveled up every time. So it's not like

that, you know, they they've leveled up into another position where they've Mhmm. Where they've

moved into. So that's a huge win for me because not everyone is

going to understand or want or be ready for a culture such

as ours. But those that even weren't, we know that they're better off

for being in it because they've actually achieved the goal that they wanted to

achieve by moving on. Not Yeah. It's not a a sort of

it hasn't had a detrimental effect on them. I can love that.

Man, it is so simple, isn't it? It is simple, but so so I bloody

love it. It's insane. Dragonet scares people. Like, what you're

saying that it it sounds so simple, but it's also so scary

because you're letting go. It is scary, and I think

it's it's a complexity. It looks

simple, but the complexity and nuance behind it

to ensure that you have all the academia in the world to

support the the way our empowerment, leadership

works and what being an empowerpreneur actually means

at KVPS. That that's that's all a lot of

heavy lifting in the background work that really doesn't

impact that much on student learning, not as much as our teachers do

face to face every day. But what it does in in the global sense

is give the the place the oxygen it needs to be able

to, be upright and standing and and survive

whatever the world puts at us. And, you know, this this model was developed

at a time of crisis, a a huge real crisis, not these little crises

that everyone's calling a crisis these days. It's just little problem that we need to

solve. You know, we had a global pandemic, and being able to get

through that in one piece, not only that, all our CALD data

improved during that time. So, you know, our our teacher survey went out

the, you know, off the charts and has been in the top

98, 90 five fifth percentile for the last six years.

So we've got the evidence to show that it actually makes a

huge difference, in the in the way that we perform and the way that

people come about it. So it's that's sort of a long way around

saying, yeah, it's scary, because anything

that sort of can't be measured at a at a sort of global level

is sometimes hard and scary. And it, you know, it it

can be taken advantage of. You you know, the system can be played

and be taken advantage of, and that's where the most accountable people in those environments

or those workforces come in. And we have to actually hold people to

account. And we either do that collectively with our whole school

or we hold ourselves to account and have, you

know, really frank and open and honest conversations around,

what our expectations are as a community and, you know, what we do

and need moving forward. Yep. The term empowerpreneur,

another gem that you've made up, which absolutely is that a term We've made up.

We've made up. You've made yeah. So is that a term that you openly use

in an open dialogue with your staff? Like, do you know it? Yeah. Do you

do? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So if I send an email, it could be good morning,

Empowerpreneurs. It's it's really intentional, metalanguage.

It's really intentional. And, look, even you'll see the bottom of my signature as a

principal of the school, it says before it says principal, it actually says empower

pernervous because I actually believe a lot more in that than the hierarchical

structure of principalships. So it's it's

intentional, and that way it gives it more credence and it

gives it more value, I think, in our in our community. But it really is

just about being a social entrepreneur. Yeah. It's

about being absolutely

clear in our intent as educators who

get have the privilege to spend so much time with young people and

influence the way they think and feel and and and experience

the world. That's some of the impact that's been

lost in the in in the sort of diatribe of

generic learning experiences for kids. You know? It's just and that and that's you you

talk about a teachings, it's not a shortage. I don't wanna say

process again. I say the teaching shortage. I always believe that the

teachers are actually out there. They're just not teaching. They're not they're not doing the

the art the art and passion and the Mhmm. The the work of teaching. They

just choose not to be teachers. And how can we, you know,

incorporate the idea of, well, you're making a huge difference

in an individual's life, and that just fuels your motivation

intrinsically to do and come and turn up every single day with a

smile on your face, and and ready to battle what the day

brings for for the kids that you serve. So Yeah. It's

I I can't get over the the uniqueness of

our educational experience and that every school and environment's different.

But, you know, there's some real tenants, I think, that we've learned over the

last four or five years that can can be adopted by many other

settings. Yeah. I agree. And every I I strongly believe that every

single human being that gets into education, they get into it so they can

empower young people. That's the main reason why they get in it. Right. It's

not, and somehow that got lost along the way a little bit

over the last ten years. I think I don't know whether it's departments coming, but

we're not getting out of it. But yeah, I just think that's the back. That's

the cornerstone of why everyone gets an education is to empower young

people to be the best version of themselves and to give them a chance at

success in life. Because that then makes you feel good as a human being

because you you you you're doing your part. You know what I mean? But,

yeah, that's that's the purpose. The the sense of ins instant gratification

entrepreneurs, you know, other business people, they want the quick quick

win and the quick fix and the quick money. And, in teaching, it's not that.

In teaching, you invest in a little micro experiences

of learning for the kids that you may get the only opportunity to teach

them for one year, you know, one, group at a time per

year. It's just how that all adds up over the seven years

or fourteen years that they're in school and then

creates this being of that's completely

shaped by their experiences, to to walk out

into our environment. And, look, the biggest thing I wanna get at right now, probably

the biggest learning I've had is around connection and how important

that is. Yep. Not just for, the the students,

to the teachers, the parents, the

wider world. We have a real connection problem, particularly

in our, senior schools, in high schools and secondary schools. And

I think that if we really honed in and worked on, you know,

particularly, say, in year seven and just more connection based activities to

show how more alike we are than we are unalike, I

think that the world would start to improve and kids would would

start thinking a little bit, more rationally about the effects

they have on other people because it's really hard to do something

unkind to someone that you're very close to. It's it's actually hard Oh, true.

As a human. Oh, that is beautiful. And you're right. Schools need to be really

intentional with connection. But more now than ever, they need to be intentional

with it. And any inverted commas sacrifice time to create the

connection, and see the benefits of that. You know, I know

there's so many schools out there, that, that did away with the ten, fifteen

minutes of home group at the secondary school level, every day, because

that's, you, you put fifteen minutes across 200 staff members, that's a

lot of money or time allowance allocations. You know what I

mean? They see that as the bottom line as opposed to the connection. But,

yeah, they've got a You can imagine if those home groups tapped into some sort

of play curriculum Yeah. Where it's it's five, ten minutes of connected

connection in that home group and then maybe rotate the home groups around the year

seven cohort. So then you get you're mixing up with even more people, and you're

having these positive, low risk experiences of connection

where the next time, if you walk past that person on the way home or

whatever else, you're not gonna cop, a barrage of insults. It's just gonna be

like that that knowing nod. Yeah. You got a head nod. Yeah. You're the guy

you're the guy who played the dice game. Yeah. Here you go. And and and

that just feeds our community with positivity because, you

know, how often do you see someone or you're in the

supermarket and we just blatantly just walk past people. I try and give them eye

eye contact, and it could be a bit freaky. You know? I'm I'm one of

those ones that say, oh, hey. How you going? Oh, hey. How you going? And

it it's kind of particularly in a suburban area, it's become

something that's not seen as normal. So I think

creating opportunities to connect in a low risk situation such

as, you know, play or activities or even just sharing

people's feelings is, is completely beneficial for our

society. They're needed. I agree. And and I look at I don't know

how to word this properly. In my morning walks, my morning runs off and think

that I'm I'm the I'm the one that smiles and nods and says good

morning to every person that walks past me, and I'll get a 50% hit rate

return. And I was actually saying my wife only a couple weeks ago

that, the beautiful thing about cultures other than

Australians, something like the Asian culture, the Indian culture, they seem to

always be the ones that morning morning, how you going? And they're very intent. They

they smile. They greet you, but a lot of, you know, I

guess the Anglo say the Australians sort of head down, bump a little bit more.

Don't make eye contact, walk past. So, yeah, it's definitely something as a culture we

need to set up. Regional. So Oh, yeah. So if you go to regional

place, and I just know in Shepparton and every time I go home, you walk

past anyone and you know you stop and have a conversation with them. They're that

freaky. Whereas I do it down here, I scare people. My wife's like, why are

you doing that? Just saying hello. Like, they just said, I wanna talk to you.

I know. But that doesn't mean I'm not gonna try. Yeah. But it's And it's

funny. My kids lonely the other day, my kid my you know, my five year

old was like, dad, why do you say hi to everybody on the way past?

I'm like and I seem to say, I said, because it's the kind thing to

do, and we should all be connected to one another. So my even my five

year old picked up. He's like, that's not the right thing. Yeah. Why are you

saying hi? We don't know. Then why are you saying hi to everyone? Isn't that

a shame that we've gone out as a society? So being intentional with it, with

the connection, is something that we need to bring back and because

it's inadvertently teaching our young people the importance of

being connected. Exactly right. Yeah. Exactly right. And I I don't think

it's also what we give we're giving other people by saying hello. It's

what we're giving ourselves. Mhmm. Yeah. We're we're actually getting a

a a a fix of of feeling connected by just brightening up

someone's day by being kind or saying hello or how you've been or

what's going on or what are you up to. Just a curious,

kind sort of gesture to someone can mean the

world and and change and flip the day on its head. I know myself, when

I've experienced hard times or bad days, it just takes one person just to

say, hey. You remember that time you did that? Like, yeah. That was really cool.

I'm like, thanks. Yeah. And all of a sudden, I got a beast of oxy

and I'm ready to go. You know? Yeah. %. And you're right. I, this

is so daggy. I I take my footy from a walk every morning with my

dog, Borge. And, there'd be some people that'll walk past, and I sort of pick

the ones sometimes, but yeah. Especially with a couple, and I'll and I'll get my

footy eyes, I'm gonna kick it to them, and they're about 30 meters away, and

they make eye contact, like, what's this idiot doing? And they close, and I'll give

them I'll I'll literally have if they have an opportunity, I'll handball it to them,

chip balls in the air, they'll catch it and handball back to me, and there's

a smile on their faces, and they're like, That's right. This idiot who didn't I

don't even know Five hit times. It's just it's just oh, I'm so embarrassed. I

just passed the footy to me, and I handballed it back, and that's how little

connection without even passing names on. I don't know their names. Yeah. But, yeah,

those little bits of life that connect me and that complete

stranger through one little thing, and he smiled and I smiled. And that's for the

next 20 steps. I'm like, that's good. Yeah. You did that. Yeah. You did that.

It's like when I play rock paper scissors with a car behind those people. Dale

hates it. I love it. I don't hate it. But pokes in, you gotta punch

him. You don't like this, Adam. Yeah. It could

be it could be seen that way. But, hey. What's the risk, really? No. There's

no risk. It's okay. Now to wrap up, mate, obviously

Yeah. You've created an awesome school culture and experience, not only for

the kids that get to go to Killam. We have. We have. I know. But

it starts with you. Like that. Yeah. We have. Good man. What are you most

proud of of when you turn up to work and impact you're having?

Do you ever take it? Some of the school holidays. The idea of a get

to sit back and think, jeez, I had a bloody good term one. What are

you most proud of of what you have all created or killed or views?

But more importantly, as the person who's most responsible,

what do you reflect on in such a positive light?

What I'm most proud of is that I question what we're doing

every single day. Mhmm. Yeah? I don't think

it is the right way. I don't think that this is the

only way I question and doubt and just

wonder, and I'm curious about

new ways of being new ways of being better for everyone.

It it's being able to actually understand

that we are equipped with this amazing thing in between our

ears that can sort of make us feel like a

super person, in a school that's succeeding and and successful.

But I love the idea that my learning curiosity brain

kicks in and and kicks that one's butt and says, hey. Is

there another way? Is there a better way? Are we doing everything we possibly can?

Is there you know, what's going on, at other schools? Can I explore and see

and make it even better over time? It's it's

probably been critical as possible as

I can in a utopic style

school that we have currently. And I think that's

part of that number one or first pillar of self efficacy

that as humans, I just don't think, you

know, Brene Brown says what's done look like. I I don't

agree. I just don't think there is ever done. Yeah. Like,

the the legacy you should be looking at leaving as a human should

just be everlasting and a positive one, hopefully,

for you and your your progeny to to enjoy. Like,

it's it it's so great

being alive that let's, you know, make the very best we

can of the time that we spend Yeah. Yeah. Together. And I

just think traditional schooling has been

become outdated when it comes to a lot of that,

ideals and those thinkings, and that's not a criticism on anyone or any

system. What it is is just a actual reflection of the planet

and the globe and the world we live in. But what an opportunity we

have as educators and as leaders to

realize that the young people are just

as absolutely wired to to make this place better than it

has been in the past. And if you let them, they'll they'll they'll go

and they'll grow and they'll build it for us to, enjoy in the

future. Love that, Matt. Now you've just mentioned something. I think everybody

it is a privilege to be alive, and I think sometimes we

forget that in everything that's going on. And I couldn't agree more, mate, and

it's a privilege to see what you've done at Kila Views and the impact you're

having on your community because everybody there is happy. Everybody

turns up ready to be there and wanting to be there. And that starts

by, you know, staying the top valuing what you do. We saw it first,

handmade, and I know people are listening to this. This is a great model not

just to schools, but any aspect of your life. And more importantly,

value each day because it is a privilege to be here. You don't know how

long we've gotten. I think the way you summed that up is beautiful, mate. But

not only has today been awesome chat, but you practice what you preach,

and you really do. And I know if people are out there that wanna probably

hear more about it, you're you're more than welcoming anybody into your

school to talk about and things like that. And you just have to listen to

a podcast we did on here about four or five episodes ago

with, Lily and James, two of your school leaders. And the way they

fit grade six students, mate, the way they spoke, not only about you, but

your school culture, it just proves exactly that you practice what

you preach, you back it up, and you walk the talk, mate. So, Matt, thanks

so much for your time being on the podcast, buddy. It's, thanks for that. I

appreciate what you guys are doing. Yeah. Very refreshing to see, mate. And, yeah,

we've seen it firsthand, and it it's it's true. So keep being a legend that

you are, mate. We really appreciate it. Yeah. And good luck to you. Keep empowering,

and maybe you guys can be empowerpreneurs yourselves. Oh, empowerpreneurs.

I like to think that we try to be empowpreneurs. I think you are. Every

every workshop we run. Right? But we we are literally trying to plant those

seeds to let them know that, hey, love the person you see in the mirror

because you are amazing. You're unique, and you can off this world so much,

and have that sense of belief to go and get it. You know what I

mean? Chase after your dreams, those sorts of things. I think we are No one's

gonna give it to you, so you have to go get it. You gotta go

get it. Yep. You gotta believe in yourself to go get them. You gotta plant

those seeds. But, mate, we can see your your jump. You got on with our

Borgie's lures there. Alright? Borgie's lures. Fishing right now? Bor

Borgie's lures. Fishing the canoe. Hey. They will be available at some stage

down in the in the future at some stage. But, mate, we wish you the

best of your holidays. Are you gonna go fishing? I'm going fishing

straight after this. Yes. In about one hour one hour's time, I'll be sitting

in a canoe, floating down the most picturesque river,

using my own wooden handcrafted boars to cast at the mighty

Murray cod, and, hopefully, catch a big one so I can

kiss it and let it go and then enjoy the stories, you know, on the

way home with one of my mates. I love it. I love it. That is

awesome. Hi, mate. Thank you for being a legend. You you are literally

inspirational to the two of us. We talk about you often. Oh, that's a bit.

But now you are. And, yeah, you're doing an amazing job of of leading that

school of yours, and we we can't wait to share these messages. So thank you

very much, and we will know now. See you again soon.